■本文选自《复旦金融评论》08期
■受访者：格雷格斯维（Greg Schvey）Axoni联合创始人
■采访者：张纯信复旦大学泛海国际金融学院学术副院长、金融科技研究中心主任
■公众号：复旦金融评论
区块链实现了数据处理的“最后一英里”，驶向成本和风险的避风港。
从很多方面来看，区块链最初是一项处于行业边缘的技术，使人联想起在火光冲天、离经叛道的“火人节”，服务器农场大量生产比特币的画面。不少比特币的早期使用者和专家将其视为一种跳脱当下霸权的技术，对行业带来颠覆性破坏而非顺水推舟的作用。比特币、ICOs等早期的应用意在规避现有的监管，但也正因为此显出其局限性。
随着人们对这一技术及其应用的理解越来越深入全面，区块链已经成为金融生态系统建设的一部分，并将金融业和社区联结在一起，而不仅仅服务于传统金融行业之外的群体。它为信息共享、自我监管、风险监控和投资者保护提供了平台这对所有人都有好处。
TradeBlock创始人、Axoni创始人兼首席执行官格雷格斯维（Greg Schvey）是这一使用转变的早期先驱者之一。在这轮对话中，我们将倾听他亲述自己的历程和他如何看待金融行业区块链的未来。
区块链发展仍处于早期阶段
张纯信：自中本聪发明比特币以来，有哪些关键变化加速了区块链在金融行业的应用？您如何描述从最初对区块链感兴趣到现在的转变？
格雷格斯维：2011年，我的兄弟、联合创始人杰夫首次向我介绍了比特币。当时，这个社区仅限于几个在线留言板的成员。这是一个人数不多但充满激情的团体，有几个来自世界各地的杰出人才。今天所有基于区块链技术的基础设施都起源于一位匿名发明家，随后在互联网论坛上得到推广，现在大多数人可能都不知道这一点。
即使在区块链以外，金融领域也存在着一种更为广泛、平民化的技术应用趋势，包括越来越多地使用第三方服务和（或）软件，这些成本可以由整个行业共同承担，而不是每家企业自己处理构建和维护一切的开销、麻烦和风险。通过使用外部软件供应商，交易公司可以将它们的精力用于生成alpha，而不是像其他人一样构建相同的系统。这可以说涵盖了金融机构基础设施的几乎每一个部分，从服务器、风控引擎到用户界面。
然而，经过多次试验和反复迭代，技术应用最大的影响是区块链在资本市场的实际应用获得进步。每一项新技术都有一个接受曲线，一些有远见的用户在早期向前推进，其他用户后期跟上。这些早期使用者往往对暂时的技术缺陷更宽容，对社会验证的关注更少，而更愿意在技术进化中发挥作用。现在，网络可以立即为终端用户提供好处，进入的门槛已经大大降低。
张纯信：区块链的实际应用情况如何？
格雷格斯维：我们无疑仍处于未来10~20年发展趋势的早期阶段。
张纯信：银行如何看待区块链的应用?
格雷格斯维：就像对任何一种技术进步一样，银行业对此褒贬不一。根据我们的经验，其中大多数认为企业区块链基础设施提供了传统数据库和网络系统以外的一个重要替代，但各银行（或各银行内的各个群体）对这一观点的认可程度不一。银行对有关加密货币的讨论很感兴趣，但由于对各种监管方面的担忧，它们通常对参与其中采取更保守的态度。我认为，参与基础设施建设或网络使用的激励措施，将更多地利用传统的激励机制，而不是通证或加密货币。
张纯信：投资者如何看待区块链？区块链的神秘感消失了吗？主要原因是什么？
格雷格斯维：除了风险投资，要进入企业区块链市场仍然很困难，因为大多数企业都是私有的。人们对加密货币的兴趣差异很大，这块基本上仍是一个零售市常最近，随着信托托管人、交易所、交易对手和其他基础设施提供商的出现，机构投资者对加密货币的兴趣有所增加。
张纯信：是什么推动了区块链的应用？使人们犹豫的原因主要又是什么？
格雷格斯维：在过去一年左右，区块链领域最大的变化是其技术使用的风险正在消失，这是因为有关这些系统如何工作的证据和市场知识越来越多。反复的验证和市场熟悉度使区块链相关企业与决策者的对话更加容易。
Axoni在信贷衍生品领域的工作，让市场洞悉了我们的技术是如何运作的，我们在股票掉期方面的工作向世界表明，成功的部署和切实的利益是可能的。真实世界的应用程序对于解释新系统或流程是有帮助的，因为它使技术对终端用户更具相关性。
Axoni领跑数据处理“最后一英里”
张纯信：你是如何创办Axoni的？它的最初使命是什么？多年来有什么变化？
格雷格斯维：公司最初叫TradeBlock，为数字货币市场上的机构交易员提供工具。本质上，TradeBlock提供了一个统一的界面，用于整合数据和公司间的交互，这些公司可能在不同的交易所执行交易，拥有多个钱包，可能有数千个场外交易对手，团队中的许多人担任不同的角色。
我们的公司成立于2016年，目前它已成为全球领先的数字货币后交易基础设施提供商。随着我们开发出这些工具，我们意识到底层协议可以给世界开启一个有效率的世界，便开始更加关注这一领域的业务，最终将其发展成为Axoni。
张纯信：如今Axoni在做什么？你认为什么是它的价值所在？
格雷格斯维：我们确保我们的客户拥有及时、准确、完整的数据。然而，我们不仅仅是一个软件供应商。我们与业界密切合作，帮助大型机构掌握复杂的技术部署，并建立了一个经过验证的、可重复的模型，以便在市场上广泛地部署这一基础设施。
张纯信：区块链只是在重复我们已经做了很长时间的事情吗？它到底填补了我们哪些真正的“需要”，使之前的不可能变为可能？
格雷格斯维：电子数据传输的概念已经存在很长时间了。区块链技术的主要飞跃是确认所有相关方正确地存储和处理数据。完成这“最后一英里”的数据自动化和同步，除了大幅降低风险外，还可以在资本市场上削减数百亿美元的成本。
张纯信：有一种“为区块链而区块链”的评价，认为区块链发展更多是一种追逐潮流的现象。这种说法可取吗？
格雷格斯维：在很多情况下，这种说法确有其合理之处。区块链领域吸引了大量的风险投资、咨询收入和内部预算。在过去很长一段时间，贴上“区块链”的标签可以提高项目获得融资的可能性。事实上，仅仅与“区块链”一词沾边是驱动许多项目的主要原因。而这样的日子已经远去，不断试验的阶段已经结束，区块链的解决方案必须依靠自身的优点在市场中站稳脚跟，这就意味着部署的总量减少，而可行部署的比例会增加。
张纯信：能否举个例子说明区块链在如今扮演的关键角色，以及您对其未来发展的期望？
格雷格斯维：就股票掉期交易而言，众所周知破损数据的问题是一个困扰行业已久的问题。要计算一个掉期合约的月还款额，其中可能包含数千个基础数据点，所有这些数据点都是由交易双方各自收集、存储和处理的；这些数据点再乘以市场上各种掉期产品的类型和交易对手的数量，你不难想象人们对掉期产品的价值产生分歧的频率有多高。这一切导致巨大的运营成本、糟糕的客户服务和始料未及的风险。
通过我们对区块链的基础设施建设，进入共享账本的任何数据都可以一种即时的、可证明的方式与所有相关方进行同步，这就消除了传输中断，并大幅降低了运营成本和风险[1]。
张纯信：区块链为何能为这些企业带来价值？如今，它们为何转向区块链寻求解决方，是暂且为之还是长久之计？
格雷格斯维：这可以说是长期以来第一次真正意义上依靠区块链进行的根本性修复。当人们能够完全仰赖分类账上的所有数据，区块链就使效率达到前所未有的水平。
张纯信：这些市场主导企业如何看待区块链的生态系统？区块链技术将在机构层面成为核心竞争力（即超大型企业内化这些技术能力）吗？还是会发展成为行业内一个独立的部门？
格雷格斯维：每个主要的金融机构都需要有足够的专业知识来了解他们当下使用的系统，尤其从安全和风险管理的角度来说。但从可用性的角度来看，它们不需要对系统运作背后的每一个复杂细节了如指掌。
规范就位，发展区块链机遇大于风险
张纯信：您最感兴趣的下一代应用技术或应用案例是什么？
格雷格斯维：至今，我们还没看到传统证券以实质性的方式涉足区块链基础设施，尽管其间有许多尝试这将是该行业向前迈出的一大步。
张纯信：目前，这些领域有人开拓吗？如果没有，我们需要达到哪些关键性的里程碑以使这些愿景成为现实？
格雷格斯维：已经有很多人做过尝试。其中一个重要的里程碑是在分布式数字环境中，获得对证券的明确监管。
张纯信：从长远来看，展望未来5年或10年，你认为“金融”一词的含义与我们今天理解的会有何不同？
格雷格斯维：我们对当下金融的自动化程度估计过高。时至今日，人们为了许多重复的、不必要的过程依然要进行大量的手工作业。在接下来的10年里，情况将会大不相同。随着区块链不断降低商业成本，我期待看到更多挑战传统金融模式的企业出现，而这些传统金融模式历来需要庞大的资产负债表来支撑。
张纯信：在社会福利方面，区块链将如何使未来比现在更好？除了在金融领域发展一个提供就业和赚钱机会的新行业，日常投资者如何从中获益？
格雷格斯维：关于社会公益，我首先要指出的是区块链这项技术给金融市场带来的透明度和可审核性。金融机构和监管机构花费大量时间，很大程度是试图了解各种风险的影响。在完全透明的情况下，识别和解决系统性风险就要容易得多。
张纯信：您能谈谈区块链在中国的发展吗？您如何描述中国区块链行业的“现状”？
格雷格斯维：我惊叹于中国政府在这项技术背后投入了如此多的资源和其他支持。区块链是一种基于网络的技术，因此，任何能够快速驱动大规模网络的因素都是至关重要的。在美国，通常是由市场循序渐进做出决定、影响行业的发展轨迹。
一方面，我不得不设想，中国将成为全球第一个拥有政府支持的数字货币的大国，这将对提高它的金融效率大有好处。但另一方面，在渠道和真实性方面也会存在风险。但是我们不能忽略，为世界树立一个先例这样一个机会意义有多大。
注释：
[1] 作者按：美国存管信托结算公司（DTCC）如今使用Axoni的区块链管理其名义价值为10万亿美元的衍生品清单。美国期权清算公司（OCC）及其720亿美元的贷款股票同样如此。
How Does Blockchain Revolutionize the Financial Industry?
Interviewee:Greg Schvey
Co-founder of Axoni
Interviewer:Charles Chang
Deputy Dean of Academics, Professor of Finance and Director of the Fintech Research Center at Fanhai International School of Finance, Fudan University
Blockchain, in many ways, started as a technology on the fringes of the industry, initially invoking images of “Burning Man” and server farms pumping out Bitcoins. Many early adopters and pundits viewed it as a technology that would work outside of what they considered the existing hegemony, one that would rage against the industry rather than play a role in its evolution. Early applications like the Bitcoin and ICOs sought specifically to avoid existing regulation but also exhibited its limitations for the same reason.
As the world has come to understand the technology and its applications in a richer way, Blockchain has become a part of ecosystem-building and has brought together the finance industry and community, rather than serving only those outside of it. It is providing platforms for information sharing, self-regulation, risk monitoring, and investor protectionto the betterment of all.
One of the early adopters and pioneers in this transformation is Greg Schvey, founder of TradeBlock and founder/CEO of Axoni. In this talk, we hear about his journey and his views on the future of Blockchain in the Finance industry, in his own words.
Blockchain from then to now
Charles Chang: What are the key changes since Satoshi that are accelerating adoption in the finance industry? How would you describe the transition from when you originally got interested in Blockchain to where it’s come today?
Greg Schvey: I was originally introduced to bitcoin in 2011 by Jeff, my brother and co-founder. At the time, the community was limited to the members of a couple of online message boards. It was a small but passionate group with a few standout characters from across the globe. The notion that all of the infrastructure based on blockchain tech today originated from an anonymous inventor and subsequently pushed forward on internet forums is something most people today may not be aware of.
Even outside of Blockchain, there is a broader secular trend of technology adoption in finance, including the increasing use of third-party services and/or software where costs can be mutualized across the industry, rather than everyone dealing with the expense, headache, and risk of building and maintain everything on their own. By using external software providers, trading firms can spend their energy generating alpha instead of building the same systems as everyone else. This could be said of nearly every part of a financial institutions’ infrastructure, from servers to risk engines to user interfaces.
The biggest impact though has been from the advancement of Blockchain’s practical application in capital markets after much experimentation and iteration. With every new technology there is an adoption curve, with a few forward-thinking users pressing forward early on and the rest of the cohort catching up eventually. Those early adopters tend to be more forgiving of temporary technical deficiencies and are concerned less about social validation, preferring instead to play a role in technological evolution. With networks now available to immediately offer benefits to end users, the barrier to entry has fallen substantially.
Charles Chang: How would you characterize the state of adoption for Blockchain?
Greg Schvey: We’re definitely still early in what is most likely a 10-20 year trend.
Charles Chang: How are banks viewing Blockchain adoption?
Greg Schvey: Like any advancement, there is a spectrum of views. In our experience, most have come to view enterprise Blockchain infrastructure as an important alternative to traditional database and network systems, though where each bank is (or each group within a bank) differs. Banks have warmed to conversations about cryptocurrencies, but are generally much more hesitant to get involved due to various regulatory concerns. I think incentives to participate in infrastructure provision or network use will draw on more traditional incentive structures rather than on tokens or cryptocurrency.
Charles Chang: How are investors viewing it? Has Blockchain been de-mystified and what are the key reasons?
Greg Schvey: Other than venture investing, it’s still difficult to get exposure to the enterprise Blockchain market since most of the companies are private. Interest in cryptocurrencies varies widely and remains largely a retail market. More recently, we’ve seen an increase in institutional investor interest in cryptocurrencies now that trusted custodians, exchanges, trading counterparties, and other infrastructure providers have begun to emerge.
Charles Chang: What has helped adoption? What are key reasons for hesitation?
Greg Schvey: The biggest shift in the last year or so is that adoption of the technology has been de-risked by virtue of the increasing proof points and market knowledge about how these systems work. The repeated validation and market familiarity makes conversations with decision makers much easier.
Our own work in credit derivatives gave the market insight into how our technology works, and our work in equity swaps showed the world that successful deployment and tangible benefits are possible. It helps to have real world applications to help explain new systems or processes, as it makes the technology much more relatable for end users.
On the Axoni from then to now
Charles Chang: How did you start Axoni? What was its original mission and has that evolved as well over the years?
Greg Schvey: The company was originally called TradeBlock and provided tools for institutional traders in the digital currency markets. Essentially, TradeBlock provides a single interface that unifies the data and interactions for firms that may be executing trades at various different exchanges, have multiple wallets, have potentially thousands of over-the-counter counterparties, and many people on their team across many roles.
We spun that company out in 2016 and it has since become the world’s leading provider of post-trade infrastructure for digital currencies. As we built out those tools, we realized the underlying protocols could open a world of efficiencies, and eventually we began to focus more heavily on that area of the business, which would eventually come to be known as Axoni.
Charles Chang: What does Axoni do today and what do you view as the value proposition?
Greg Schvey: We ensure our clients have timely, accurate, and complete data. However, we’re more than a software provider. We work closely with the industry to align large institutions on complicated technology deployments and have built out a proven, repeatable model to get this infrastructure deployed in a wide range of markets.
Charles Chang: Is Blockchain just re-doing something we have been doing for a long time? What is the real “need” being filled that was previously impossible?
Greg Schvey: The concept of electronic data transfer has existed for a long time. The major leap with this technology is confirmation that all relevant parties are storing and processing that data correctly. Finishing that last mile of automation and synchronization has the potential to take out tens of billions of dollars of costs in capital markets, in addition to substantially reducing risk.
Charles Chang: There is some notion out there of “Blockchain for Blockchain’s sake,” that there is some fad-component. Is that mis-informed?
Greg Schvey: In many cases, that’s actually quite accurate. The space attracted huge amounts of venture capital, consulting revenue, and internal budgets. For a long time, attaching the word “Blockchain” to something was a way to increase the probability of funding. In fact, simply doing something related to the word ”Blockchain” was a major driver for many projects. With those days now behind us and the time for constant experimentation is over, solutions have to survive on their own merits. This means less total deployments, but a much higher proportion that are viable.
Charles Chang: Can you give a case study as to the critical role that’s being played and how you expect that to develop going forward?
Greg Schvey: In the case of equity swaps, the issue of broken data is a longstanding and well-known problem in the industry. To calculate a monthly payment owed on an equity swap contract, there could be thousands of underlying datapoints, all collected, stored, and processed separately by each party to the trade. Multiply that by the various swap types and number of counterparty connections throughout the market and you can quickly imagine how frequently people end up disagreeing on the value of a swap. This leads to huge operational costs, poor client service, and undesirable risk.
With our Blockchain infrastructure, any data that goes onto the shared ledger is immediately and provably synchronized with all relevant parties, eliminating breaks and substantially reducing operational costs and risk[1].
Charles Chang: Why is this driving value for these firms? Why are they willing to turn to it now and is this a “temporary” fix or long-term?
Greg Schvey: This is arguably the first truly fundamental fix in a very long time. The idea of being able to rely fully on all data on the ledger brings a level of efficiency that has never existed before.
Charles Chang: How do they view the ecosystem? Are these going to be core-competencies at the institutional level (i.e., will mega-firms internalize these capabilities) or will this develop into a separate sector of the industry?
Greg Schvey: Every major financial institution needs to have sufficient expertise to understand the systems they’re using, particularly from a security and risk management perspective. That said, understanding every intricacy of how the system works isn’t required from a usability perspective more generally.
Going forward
Charles Chang: What is the next generation of applications or usage cases that you find most interesting?
Greg Schvey: We really haven’t seen traditional securities move to Blockchain infrastructure yet in any meaningful way, despite the many attempts. This would be a great step forward for the industry.
Charles Chang: Are there people working in those spaces now? If not, what are the key milestones we need to hit in order for these to become a reality?
Greg Schvey: There are many people who have tried this. One of the big milestones would be obtaining regulatory clarity about the recognition of a security in a distributed, digital environment.
Charles Chang: Going farther out, if we looked at this in terms of 5- or 10-years from now, how might you expect “finance proper” to be different from what we are seeing today?
Greg Schvey: People far overestimate the automation in finance today. There is still a huge amount of manual work being done for repetitive, unnecessary processes. That will look very different over the next decade. As that lowers the cost of doing business, I expect we’ll see more challengers to traditional financial models that historically have required monstrous balance sheets to facilitate.
Charles Chang: In terms of the social good, how is this future better than where we are today? Other than growing a new sector in the finance that provide some jobs and opportunities to make money, how are every-day investors going to benefit?
Greg Schvey: The first thing I’d point to about social good is the transparency and auditability this technology brings to financial markets. Much of what financial institutions and regulatory agencies spend time on is trying to understand the impact of various risks. With full transparency, identifying and solving for that systemic risk is much easier.
Charles Chang: Can you speak to the development of Blockchain-in-finance in China? How would you describe the “state” of the industry in China?
Greg Schvey: I’ve been impressed with the amount of resources and other support the government itself has put behind the technology. It’s a network-based tech, so anything that can drive a large scale network quickly will be critical. In the U.S., it’s generally left to the market to make that determination over time.
I have to imagine China will be the first global power with a government-backed digital currency. There will be benefits in terms of efficiency, as well as risks regarding access and authority, but the opportunity to set a precedent for the world cannot be overlooked.
Endnote：
[1] Author's note: The Depository Trust & Clearing Corporation (DTCC) now uses Axoni's Blockchain to manage its 10 trillion US dollar nominal-value derivatives inventory as does the Options Clearing Corporation (OCC) and its 72 billion US dollars in equities-on-loan.
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